Vinnie Vegas :Nothing high and mighty about my comments. I’m just adding some perspective of pro wrestling history. If people don’t like the show, just don’t watch it. No idea why so many folks have so much emotionally invested in this issue.

Because people who are fans of pro wrestling these days are so utterly passionate about it that when they see a wrestling product that offends them or that they otherwise hate, they vent about it any which way they can for right or for wrong. Take TNA, for example, which has been going downhill since 2007 up until the fall of 2009 and has now become complete and utter fecal matter ever since January 4 this year when Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff came into the company and halted its efforts to actually MOVE FORWARD after being miserable for so long. People are especially upset with TNA because of how the wrestling business needs a product to watch that is an alternative to WWE’s programming, and these people want TNA to be that alternative and as such succeed in the worst way possible. Unfortunately, TNA has let them down time and time again, hence all the TNA rants on YouTube and every pro wrestling forum you can possibly imagine. Don’t get me wrong; many people have finally come to their senses and have stopped watching TNA’s weekly schlockfest, but like it or not, there will always be that small select group of people (i.e., Foolkiller99 from YouTube, whom I can’t stand for his elitist attitude and how he has constantly felt the need to claim how much he hates WWE any chance he gets when he STILL watches the product himself from time to time and can say good things about it) who will still hold on to whatever hope they have left for this idiotically managed company even though they know that the product is garbage compared to what it used to be.

The same holds true for Wrestlicious; people who are passionate about women’s wrestling (myself included) see Wrestlicious as little more than a black eye on the face of women’s wrestling for how the project represents its participants as little more than cosplayers/sex objects. I’m sorry, but the whole Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling formula is so old and stale now that it simply doesn’t appeal to people like me these days. This is 2009/2010, after all, not 1986-1990. Plus, Johnny Cafarella, Steve Blance, Jay Vargas, and Jimmy Hart are all giving a platform for all these women who are accomplished performers in the independent wrestling circuit (Daizee Hayes, Lacey, Lizzy Valentine, Mercedes Martinez, etc.) a platform upon which they can basically urinate on their legacies by playing these goofy, unrealistic characters whom we can’t connect with or even TOLERATE, much less like, and who are usually the butt of numerous jokes that are either completely tasteless and sexist or just plain idiotic. Okay, the writers might be going for the whole “so bad it’s good” vibe with this show, but come on! GLOW did it so much better because the writing for that promotion–while it was still peppered with innuendo and stupidity–didn’t wreak of either element the way Wrestlicious does. Also, the quality of the matches is so piss poor even when the experienced wrestlers are involved and pales in comparison to the quality of even the poorest of those matches I’ve seen in Shimmer, Women Superstars Uncensored, NCW, and even the now-defunct WOW promotion of 2000, which most of these women have come from. Seriously, look at a Daizee Haze match from Shimmer or Chikara Pro and compare it to ANY of her matches from Westlicious as “Marley Sebastian” and try to tell me that any of the latter group of matches are equal to or better than any of the former group.

Finally, where are all the plus-sized women in Wrestlicious–you know, women like ODB, Mickie Knuckles, Betsy Ruth, and Awesome Kong? Because I don’t see any such women…only these chicks who can fit into a doggone bikini, which just shows you the kind of woman Cafarella and company are interested in. Talent doesn’t matter to them; looks do. That’s why we have botchmistresses like Cousin Cassie, Bandita, Lil Slamm, Maui, and Toni the Top in Wrestlicious and not any REAL wrestlers (i.e., women who have actual and acknowledged talent and passion for the business who don’t see wrestling as a one-way ticket to the cover of Playboy) like Kong or Knuckles. Plus, some of the women who are in Wrestlicious aren’t even used right. Kristin Flake, for example–an accomplished wrestler from NCW and even NWA, to name but two of the promotions she’s been in–hadn’t been given the chance to showcase ANY of her skills as a WRESTLER throughout the entire first season of Wrestlicious TakeDown and instead had been used as a comedy act? This girl has YET to showcase her wrestling ability on TV (or at least on WWE or TNA programming) while Cousin Cassie has been featured in countless segments AND matches on that same show and has proven how green she really is every time she has stepped inside the ring. Why should it be that we can see Cassie wrestle practically every single show and yet, a seasoned pro like Kristin Flake–or “Shauna Na,” as Wrestlicious wants us to call her–is left basically sitting on the bench?

I’m sorry, Vinnie, but I cannot respect Wrestlicious in the slightest. Don’t worry, though; you may rest assured that I will NEVER watch their show or otherwise support their waking nightmare of a product when I have a product like the second season of Lucha Libre USA to look forward to on MTV2. Heck, I even liked Wrestling Society X when MTV aired it back in 2007, and people on the Internet have been trashing that show left and right for all its flaws while not giving it a single ounce of credit for the things it actually got RIGHT. Translation: As a wrestling fan, I know what I like and don’t like and will gladly support the shows I do like. The shows I don’t care for, though, like Wrestlicious, will never get my viewership.

Vinnie Vegas :Actually, that wasn’t my next defense. And I am not defending the promotion. My point still stands – it’s possible to like the promotion as well as like and support more serious womens’ wrestling. The two positions are not mutually exclusive.
As for the idea of insulting wrestling fans’ intelligence, I think there is a long tradition of wrestling promoters insulting the intelligence of the fans. I don’t find Wrestlicious particularly insulting, no more than the WWE’s product, or TNA’s Knockouts division. Indeed, WWE and TNA routinely insult the fans’ intelligence. If you want to fight on that hill, that’s a pretty poor choice,

What a load of high-and-mighty, self-serving nonsense! You’re countering people’s criticisms of this godforsaken show (which IS a joke of an “action comedy” show, by the way, with NO originality at all and the tackiest, most misogynistic humor this side of Two and a Half Men), and you claim you’re NOT defending it? That’s pretty laughable.

Anyway, don’t be too shocked by everyone’s “venom” here on this thread, because Wrestlicious is the most embarrassing wrestling product on TV, even with TNA in shambles and WWE struggling as well.

Vinnie Vegas :Actually, that wasn’t my next defense. And I am not defending the promotion. My point still stands – it’s possible to like the promotion as well as like and support more serious womens’ wrestling. The two positions are not mutually exclusive.
As for the idea of insulting wrestling fans’ intelligence, I think there is a long tradition of wrestling promoters insulting the intelligence of the fans. I don’t find Wrestlicious particularly insulting, no more than the WWE’s product, or TNA’s Knockouts division. Indeed, WWE and TNA routinely insult the fans’ intelligence. If you want to fight on that hill, that’s a pretty poor choice,

Ring of Honor doesn’t treat its supporters like idiots, and neither do Dragon Gate or Evolve. They may have the occasional live-action cartoon character thrown into the mix (Grizzly Redwood, Ernie Osiris, Rhett Titus, etc.), but the rest of the characters you see in the ring are extensions of the wrestlers’ own personalities. On the whole, then, these promotions present their wrestling product in a realistic limelight that could rival any MMA show on a regular basis, especially if you consider all the fixed fights that have happened in MMA history.

Maybe WWE and TNA “insult the fans’ intelligence” these days, but once upon a time, WWE USED to take women’s wrestling seriously, as did TNA. Now, granted, WWE has been pretty off-and-on about women’s wrestling over the years, and now with the Women’s Championship–once held by women like Ivory, Jacqueline, Lita, the late Fabulous Moolah, Wendi Richter, Jazz, and many other women who busted their backs to be respected by the boys in the back–back in the trash in favor of the Diva’s Championship, which looks more like it belongs as part of a Barbie dress-up set from Mattel, it’s become apparent that Vince is now back off the Women’s Division bandwagon. Also, the top women in the Diva’s Division are women who, despite being attractive, are sloppy in the ring, don’t put on matches that are as stellar as they should be, and could potentially end their opponents’ wrestling careers if their wrestling skills aren’t further refined (e.g. Eve Torres, the Bella Twins, Maryse, and current Diva’s Champion Alicia Fox). Meanwhile, skilled women like Gail Kim, Natalya Niedhart, and Jillian Hall are very rarely (if at all) allowed to carry the division by showcasing their own skills in high-profile matches, and because of such negligence, hardly anyone cares about or respects the Divas Division anymore compared to back in 1998 to 2004.

The same holds true with TNA’s Knockouts Division. Once upon a time, we were allowed to see the likes of Gail Kim, Awesome Kong, ODB (whose in-ring talents hadn’t declined yet), Roxxi, and even Taylor Wilde feuding for the Knockouts Championship. Nowadays, however, we’re treated to botchfests featuring Lacey Von Erich, who doesn’t take the sport nearly as seriously as she should for someone with her bloodline; Madison Rayne, who’s bland and generic to the point where she would blend in with the rest of the Beautiful People rather than stands out if not for her current push; and Velvet Sky, who may be great to look at and decent on the mic, but who could also use some serious refinement in her in-ring performance. Meanwhile, Sarah “Sarita” Stock–a high-caliber luchadora from CMLL down in Mexico–is almost nowhere to be found after her poorly scripted and defined heel turn from this past July, and one could very much argue that the only reason why Taylor Wilde and Ayako Hamada are Knockouts Tag Team Champions is because TNA creative had nothing else better to do with them. Oh, and don’t think I’ve forgotten about both promotions hosting “bra and panty” matches, mud wrestling contests, catfights, pillow fights, bikini contests, beauty pageants, and other such sexist garbage over the years. So, yes, both the Divas and the Knockouts are struggling to regain their glory, but let it be known that once upon a time, both divisions had glory. It’s therefore only a matter of time until both WWE and TNA finally decide to pull their heads out of the sand, start taking their women’s divisions seriously.

That’s the whole point of everyone’s arguments here. Women’s pro wrestling NEEDS TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY these days if pro wrestling as a whole is going to maintain whatever popularity it has left. After all, MMA treats its female athletes with the same level of respect as they do the men, and guess what–MMA fans have come to learn to respect the female fighters just as much as they do the male fighters. The same holds true with pro wrestling, which isn’t as different from MMA as people might otherwise think; if wrestling promotions promote their women with the same level of dignity as they do their men, then people will finally start to care about and respect women’s wrestling again. Granted, with wrestling being a male-dominated sport, they might never get quite as much of the spotlight as the guys, but they will still receive some level of prestige. Not only that, but people will also start to take pro wrestling as a whole more seriously and not be so quick to snub it and call it “fake” just because it’s part sport, part theatrics. David McLane gave this formula an honest try back in 2000 with Women of Wrestling (WOW), but that promotion flopped big time because he couldn’t get with the times, train the women on his roster as thoroughly as he should have, and let them develop their own characters (i.e., create characters based on extensions of their own personalities) rather than play kitchsy, gimmicky characters that he and his writers had created for them. That’s not a knock on the WOW women, either; they tried their best to put on an enjoyable show. The fault in this example is all David McLane’s.

Unfortunately, Wrestlicious clearly doesn’t have this mindset, nor will they ever. Sure, they have plenty of women who can wrestle well, but today’s wrestling fans have a hard time looking past their outdated character gimmicks to see that. Then again, quite frankly, the deliberately bad humor, cheesy music, and canned laugh track don’t help matters at all. Also, like someone had said here earlier, the whole company is an unapologetic rip-off of the original GLOW promotion from 1986-1990 with such elements as Johnny Cafarella as a ring announcer, the corny backstage skits, the blue-and-pink ring, and even the character “Dr. Grope” (using the same actor, too, more likely than not). Even so, Wrestlicious’s humor is not only as cheesy as GLOW’s was, but is even more lowbrow because of how it relies more heavily on “Two-and-a-Half Men”-style innuendo than GLOW’s did back in the day. Similarly, instead of using GLOW’s formula and hiring women who know next to nothing about pro wrestling, training them, giving them their characters, sending them out there to perform, and inspiring them to carry on and train harder so that they can become even more competent wrestlers in other federations, Wrestlicious uses a different formula: They take mostly talented women from the independent scene, strip them of their identities, give them kitschy 1980s-fashionned characters that most wrestling fans today cannot suspend their disbelief enough to accept, and have them put on matches that are only one tenth the quality of the matches they used to put on back in whatever federations they used to believe in. Think about it: Suppose you’re a fan of Awesome Kong and have fallen in love with her matches in Japan, TNA, Shimmer, ROH, Chickfight, and so on, and suppose she joined a federation like Wrestlitious. Wouldn’t you be embarrassed to see Kong being made to take on a gimmick like “Baha the Whale-Woman” and wrestle ten times worse than she ever did back in the day? Most fans would, and that’s why most of these fans (i.e., Wrestlebunny from Twitter and YouTube, whom I have come to respect) are so upset with what Wrestlicious has done with these former indie scene women. And, yes, there are women like Christie “Glory” Ricci and Lizzy “Kandi Kisses” Valentine who will defend their roles in Wrestlicious to the ends of the earth (especially Christie, who has become such a boorish loudmouth that I have come to have NO respect for her at all whatsoever and wish she would at least shut her ignorant mouth before she draws even further negative attention to the company). Still, you cannot honestly tell me that after all is said and done and Wrestlicious goes out of business–which might not be soon, but in all due honestly, I don’t see them lasting all that long in the future–that there will not be AT LEAST one woman who will look back on this promotion and her work in it and admit, “You know what? Joining that company was a stupid move on my part, and I honestly regret doing so. If I could do it all over again, I’d tell Johnny C, Jimmy Hart, and that Vargas kid to get lost and leave me alone.”

I’m not saying all the Wrestlicious women will feel that way, but don’t be surprised if AT LEAST one of them makes such a statement soon after Wrestlicious closes its doors for good. After all, Teddy Hart feels that way about Wrestling Society X when MTV took it off the air.

In short, women’s mainstream pro wrestling is a joke these days, and Wrestlicious is doing nothing at all to help that. In fact, it’s only making the situation worse. Such is why people have turned to WSU, Shimmer, Chickfight, Pro Wrestling EVE, and even the Bombshells Division in WFX in Canada and the Ladies Division in World Wrestling Professionals down in South Africa. People want the seriousness to come back into women’s pro wrestling. They’re sick of the campiness and sexism, as there’s already been enough of that out there over the past few years. That’s not even for women’s wrestling, either, but pro wrestling in general. Bottom line, though, if you want to continue watching Wrestlicious, so be it, but don’t expect anyone to support it when they are in fact insulted by it. Also, don’t be surprised if you continue receiving heat for liking it, as Wrestlicious’s critics are not only many, but they are VOCAL. Besides, anyone who supports Christie Ricci after she spouted off like this against AJ Lee form the NXT Season 3 Divas line-up (as well as the rest of WWE) is bound to receive some serious backlash and ought to email her with his or her concerns for her unprofessional behavior.

http://diva-adikt.com/2010/09/15/christie-ricci-slams-wwe-and-nxt-divas-edition/#comment-285

One final note: Rumor has it that the REAL GLOW–the originators of the kind of sports entertainment that Wrestlicious is giving us right now–is coming back either later this year or some time in 2011. Feel free to check it out. I know I will, as I respect the hell out of the original GLOW for gaining its huge cult fan base and doing its part in introducing women into the realm of sports entertainment.

Also, if you’re in to “action comedy” wrestling, I highly recommend Chikara Pro. It’s basically a lucha libre comic book come to life that that’s had a fan base since its debut in May 2002 and has got some wacky yet likable characters, yet none of the over-the-top innuendo, loud color schemes, canned laugh track, or ear-splitting music that Wrestlicious has become known for.

Thanks for reading.

As for the idea of insulting wrestling fans’ intelligence, I think there is a long tradition of wrestling promoters insulting the intelligence of the fans. I don’t find Wrestlicious particularly insulting, no more than the WWE’s product, or TNA’s Knockouts division. Indeed, WWE and TNA routinely insult the fans’ intelligence. If you want to fight on that hill, that’s a pretty poor choice,

Vinnie Vegas :The thing is, it is possible to like Wrestlicious as well as the other promotions you mention. I don’t understand your venom – if you don’t like the show, don’t watch it.

Because the whole promotion insults wrestling fans’ intelligence and is an unapologetic rip-off of the original GLOW from 1986 that uses outdated, unoriginal humor (which, by the way, isn’t even all that funny, especially with the heavy reliance of innuendo) to promote itself as well as shameless T&A that emphasizes its stars’ sexuality over their in-ring talents. Not only that, but for 2009-2010, the wrestling is so botchy and painful to watch that it isn’t even funny. I personally would expect better from the likes of Daizee Haze, Portia Perez, Lacey, Daffney, and all the other alumni from TNA and Shimmer.

I know what your next defense is going to be, too: “Well they must be doping something right, because they’re the fastest-growing wrestling promotion going on right now.” That may be true, but they’re growing as quickly as they are for all the wrong reasons–namely, the fact that they’re promoting their product to 18- to 35-year-old guys who are so desperate for eye candy that they will watch ANYTHING they can find that features tacky humor and scantily clad women, regardless of what that program is otherwise supposed to be. It’s just like Lance Storm once said about the Wrestlicious product back on May 13, 2009:

http://www.stormwrestling.com/051309.html

“I personally find the Wrestlicious stuff on YouTube embarrassing, and wish the kid with the money would have backed a company like Shimmer instead, because then he could have actually made a positive influence on the women’s wrestling scene.”

Say what you will about Lance, but I respect him for respecting women’s wrestling and taking women in the sport seriously, which this Jay Vargas kid clearly doesn’t, else he WOULD have used his lottery winnings to back Shimmer or Chickfight or WSU instead of founding this federation. Sure, he’s creating new jobs for women in pro wrestling and giving them a good payday, but these women from the independent scene and from TNA really need to ask themselves as to whether or not these jobs Vargas is providing them with are doing anything to add to their legacy rather than subtract from it and whether or not playing live-action cartoon characters rather than their own original in-ring personas is doing any justice at all for themselves or their fellow women. This isn’t GLOW, after all, where David McLane took a bunch of women with no prior wrestling experience, sought training for them, put them in the ring and allowed them to put on as entertaining a show as they could with what skills they’d learned. GLOW was at least polished in its presentation, and whatever innuendo they had on the program was kept to a minimum while the campiness–while it was there–was fitting for the era it was staged in. There is practically nothing era-appropriate for the campiness in Wrestlicious, however, and whereas many of the original GLOW Girls eventually became some of the most underrated women in pro wrestling history (Beatie, Mathilda the Hunn/Queen Kong, Lisa “Tina Ferrari” Moretti, Mt. Fiji, Attache, etc.), Wrestlicious is taking skilled wrestlers and making them look like jokes.

I’m sorry, but if I want “action comedy”-style wrestling, I’ll watch Chikara Pro any day of the week over Wrestlicious. At least Chikara offers fun and kid-friendly atmosphere with smarter angles and storytelling. Heck, even the original GLOW was a hoot, as it was (like I said) fitting for the time as well as the originator of this kind of sports entertainment. Rest assured, however, that Wrestlicious will NEVER get any TV ratings from me, nor any hits on the Internet, as it basically spits in my face as a wrestling fan. Honestly, if GLOW ever made a return, I’d much sooner watch that than Wrestlicious simply becuase of GLOW’s name value.

PS: If you still don’t take my argument seriously, listen to the Big Al Show’s podcast from August 14, 2010, available here…

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/thebigalshow/2010/08/14/the-big-al-show

…and listen to what original GLOW Girl Colleen “Beastie” Favre has to say about Wrestlicious. Also, Christie Ricci’s response to all the criticism Wrestlicious has been receiving, which is available here…

http://www.lethalwow.com/interviews/christiericci.php

…I thought was in pretty bad taste. Honestly, just because a wrestling fan wants a more serious wrestling product doesn’t make him or her an “idiot” for not liking your own product, “Glory.” Your immaturity clearly shows just how ignorant you are in this respect.

Just my take on the whole issue. Take it as you will.

As for you, Jay Vargas, I hope you rot in Hell along with all your ignorant, classless supporters (Johnny Cafarella and Jimmy Hart especially) for tarnishing women’s wrestling, and I hope your joke of a company goes bankrupt in the near future.

What a load of bull.